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30 August 2007

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Comments

Doug Mahugh

Do you really think that's a valid example? He deletes a formula from the worksheet, but doesn't delete it from the calc chain, and Excel complains that the document is corrupt because there's a reference to a non-existent formula. That seems pretty forced to me.

As Miguel de Icaza has pointed out, either you think the calc chain matters (in which case you need to maintain it), or you don't (in which case you can just delete it). I met a 19 year-old in Delhi named Akshaya earlier this year, and he had built an Open XML spreadsheet editor on his own, which he gave me a copy of. That program handles this issue just fine.

Btw, since that page mentions me by name in another context, I'll just add that the BIFF12 documentation is available through the same means the BIFF8 documentation is available: a quick no-cost license that anyone can get. In fact, we've had a large number of people worldwide ask for that documentation recently, and they're all getting it.

Some of Stephane's comments are valid; for example, I agree that more could be done to make the spec less Anglo-centric. But the sky isn't falling, and the specific example you've used is a pretty simple case of deliberately corrupting a document. I still wish we handled the corruption better in Excel, and maybe we will eventually, but it's not a problem with the spec or the standard.

Richard Soles

As a sidelight on Doug Mahugh's comment, here is his profile from his blog:

"My name is Doug Mahugh and I'm a technical evangelist at Microsoft specializing in the Office Open XML file formats. I am also the moderator of the OpenXmlDeveloper.org web site, where Open XML developers share tips, techniques and source code for a variety of development platforms."

In his blog Mr Mahugh posts "neutral" comments such as the following:

"I've wondered before whether all these sleazy anti-Open XML tactics are working. Are IBM and their friends succeeding in creating FUD in the marketplace?"

Stephane Rodriguez

Is it the same Doug Mahugh than the guy posting on http://blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh/ who keeps repeating that the ISO vote stuffing is actually just MS versus IBM ?

Scoop : the software community at large is against the proposed ISO standard.

Shall I remind your colleague's answer while discussing in US INCITS V1, questioned about the proprietary crap that is baked into this "open, platform-independent, vendor-neutral" stuff : Rex Shaelke : "we felt it this way".

Given how much out of touch with the reality you are, why should anyone take your words? You are Microsoft Office PR machine my friend. Everything you say is obstrusive and borders panic and schizophrenia.

As for your points above. Have you really read the article? If you did, you would read that in order to play devil's advocate, what I do next is make manual changes to the calculation chain. And it does no better.

If you knew what you are talking about, or worse if you really wrote what you believe in instead of doing what your employer requires you to do, the only genuine answer to this thing worth making is that : "we messed things up. In BIFF, the calculation chain was governed by cells, and now it's the opposite. It has the very unfortunate consequence to require implementers to rebuild the calculation chain or face full spreadsheet recalculations (i.e. second-class citizen), which in and of itself implies to rewrite a portion of Excel. Please accept our apology, we are taking ECMA 376 back to working draft status, will fix this, and resubmit it to ECMA".

Anyway, I'm perplexed about this schizophrenia Doug. Is it the same guy who was posting warm cheers to me just months ago, and has started ignoring my criticism right after I called BS on the ISO route? What about this :
http://blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh/archive/2006/12/01/diffopc-if-you-need-this-you-need-it-bad.aspx

and this :

http://blogs.msdn.com/dmahugh/archive/2006/08/22/712835.aspx

and this :

http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/archive/2006/10/27/friday-thoughts-oct-27-2006.aspx


Anyways.

As for Miguel's pseudo-rebuttal, perhaps it's time to ask yourself two things :

1) Can you rebutt real examples? I think you can rebutt statements like "we are open and transparent", but I don't think you can rebutt real examples.

2) Miguel works for Microsoft (he thinks it's a pride not to be officially on MS payroll, nevermind the bulk of Novell revenues are a direct influx from MS). But can you guess the retaliation if he said anything negative about this stuff? You have to admit it, he's got no freedom in speech in that very area, plus Microsoft is using him as a tool to break the open source community apart.

Stephane Rodriguez

As for the BIFF12 documentation, there is more than meet the eye, actually. I don't offer enough context in my article, but this will be fixed in the next couple of days. In a nutshell,

1) it's been reported out there that anyone who has contacted Microsoft to get specs of the BIFFx file formats have received no response at all. That those specs include BIFF12 remains to be seen anyway, we have to take the words of a Microsoft evangelist (officially paid to twist the truth to Microsoft sole advantage), which in turn does not say much at all. When requesting a copy of the file format, there is a section in the agreement which says the licensee cannot be used this stuff to create a competing product. Read that again if you did not catch the irony...

2) BIFF12 was, according to Microsoft (which again does not mean much as far as truth is concerned), built only for performance reasons. This can easily be debunked since SpreasheetML itself is reportedly designed in an extremely obstrusive way for performance reasons already (shared strings, shared formulas, indexes all over the place, ...)

The reason why Microsoft built BIFF12, a shocker, is because SpreadsheetML has plenty of passwords and connection strings in plain-text, and that can be removed or altered with just a text editor. Microsoft wanted to provide a fallback for sceptics, and that's what we end up with.

So here again, there is more than meets the eye, that's why BIFF12 is just a flavor of SpreadsheetML and should be part of the ECMA 376 documentation. Of course, it it were part of it, the immediate consequence is that the "XML" claim is violated.

Jani

Hi Doug,

Ok, so it is possible to implement a simple Open XML spreadsheet editor after all. Let's all accept OOXML as an international standard. And the specification is available to everyone? Forget about the ISO process. We have a standard.

Stop.

The successful implementation of a small subset of a specification unfortunately does not validate the entire specification as a standard. Specifications are a dime a dozen. I can write one. Their quality varies wildly and quality here refers to the level of precision at which each concept and algorithm is fleshed out in the specification.

A standard is a special case of a specification. A standard is supposed to be a specification of the highest possible quality, so that it enables anyone, without a partnership with MS, to write an implementation that A) is fully conforming and B) can read/write all the documents produced by the reference implementation which in this case is MS Office 2007. So, the spec needs to answer all the questions. All of them. And believe me, programmers are inquisitive. The devil is in the details as every programmer knows.

A 6000 page heap of paper may be a specification and it may be available to anyone, but it's worthiness for standardization depends heavily on these quality issues as well. According to the noises we've been hearing on the Net about numerous unaddressed technical questions about the OOXML spec it really isn't time to talk about standardization just yet.

Fast track for standardization is a contradiction in terms. Particularly so for a specification written by a single vendor in a dominant position.

tz

The problem with the spreadsheet example is that Excel itself makes no attempt to repair the spreadsheet. Where in the OOXML spec does it say what should be handled in this case? You are saying it is noncompliant, but is it or merely an ambiguity in the OOXML spec? Remember OOXML is what the proposed 6000 pages say, not what Excel happens to do. And it is quite possible that Excel is a NONCOMPLIANT implementation. But I doubt it will get fixed.

But it also points out the problem. The format wasn't well thought-out. It's still valid XML to have just ...base-64... but I doubt they would submit that as a standard.

Noting someone else made a program that works with Excel's XML says nothing. Programs already work with the proprietary binary formats. Did your indian colleague code just from the OOXML spec, or did he use Excel as a test oracle? Again, what is the point of having an ISO spec if everyone will have to ignore it and have a copy of Office to test how things actually work? "No with comments" should be the comment "You are going to have to buy Office anyway to have even a slim chance of interoperability, so why bother with this kabuki?".

To have a lot of separate XML chunks so interdependent that the result is a mesh that breaks if even one error occurs is atrocious design. Or an implementation that expects everything perfect is a bad implementation. Perhaps that is why the spec is 6k pages and still doesn't document everything properly.

So if you are trying to make the point that really bad designs can be implemented (and having done too much of that in my career, I would agree), fine, but bad designs ought not become any kind of standard. Alternatively, if the standard is proper, Excel is noncompliant so can't be considered where "open standards" need to be used. It needs to be fixed.

A while ago, when Microsoft was helping (snuff) OS/2, they complained about paying by k-loc (1000 lines of code). They were right. Larger code is much faultier than smaller code. ODF does everything necessary in under a kilopage (maybe a bit more adding exhaustive spreadsheet formula details). An annex for Microsoft legacy support wouldn't take more than a few hundred pages.

Instead we have this pile of attempted documentation of the observed behavior of Office, which fails to properly do that, but shows that anything so complex is absurd. It would be bad enough if the 6000 pages had no ambiguities, contradictions, and 100% coverage. Instead it is a mound hiding quite a few unexpected unpleasant surprises.

Oh, and accusing the open source people of "sleazy tactics" only shows that Microsoft is trying to get pornography to be sold as a kid's movie. The problem is not that Debbie does Dallas competes with Bambi, but that the former has, shall we say, flaws that make it inappropriate for kids.

Standards should be clear and concise. Even complex ones. OOXML isn't. I'd welcome them to try again with something reasonable. That would be better than trying their strongarm tactics to get approval for something this faulty.

Karl O Pinc

You write: "So WHEN customers discover the truth of the implementation difficulties and continued lock-in of their document world, they'll respond the way customers always do when a vendor pulls a fast one on them."

What makes you think that? Remember "Expanded Memory"? It was sold as a way to address more than 640K of RAM. It was lame; a necessary workaround for the Intel 80286 architecture but completely unnecessary on the 80386. The 386 was introduced in 1987 yet Windows for Workgroups, the business class Microsoft Windows product, continued to require expanded memory. It was not until Windows 95 was introduced in 1995, 8 years after expanded memory became obsolete, that Microsoft abandoned expanded memory.

For 8 years programmers had to struggle with memory management, unnecessarily. This is hardly an isolated example. Working around design deficiencies seems to be the essence of working with Microsoft products. And back then Microsoft did not have anything like the monopoly position they have today. What makes you think it will be different this time?

People only miss something that's been taken away from them. Working with Microsoft data formats has always been a struggle, working with OOXML will be entirely unremarkable in that respect.

stephe

@Karl: Morning Karl -- thanks for the commentary. Customers do change over time. There was a point through the late 80s where DEC continued to try to lock customers to their hardware base. If you put third party disks or memory on a VAX you voided your warranty and support agreement. It was just memory and disks -- nothing special. We did it anyway. We were tired of the lock-in, and tired of the ever increasing support costs and forced hardware upgrades. We were the customers -- it was our money. Then we started buying UNIX systems. You have to remember, twenty years ago UNIX was not the commercial workhorse it is today. It was less scalable, robust, and secure than VAX/VMS. But as customers we weren't going to take it any more. We could get UNIX systems from any number of vendors. Some of us even like DEC a lot. But that didn't mean we needed to give them money to support their stock price instead of solving our problems.

The cycle is repeating here. Customers that are less risk averse will "tough it out" longer. But once they start to see the migration path and that they're not exposing themselves or "going it alone" to lead, they'll start following the lead of others and start switching.

Peter Rock

"It buys them a few years of market ignorance at best."

Which translates into short-term money gains for shareholders. And that is all MS is interested in.

Anita Hanson

I'm always astonished by the measured, thoughtful responses to Microsoft's outrageous antics. I think people should be hopping up and down, collecting pitchforks and flaming torches, and preparing to storm Redmond. Fortunately, cooler heads prevail. (Or maybe not fortunately...) lying bully, Microsoft's spokepersons all claim that 'everyone uses dirty tactics.' No, they don't. Their scorched-earth take-no-prisoners policy is absurd and unnecessary. Or it would be, if they would devote a fraction of those sacking-the-village energies into developing excellent software and turning all of their lies into truth by removing their roadblocks (more like landmines) to interoperability and open standards. You don't have to be an OOXML expert to understand their real aims. Their tactics speak loudly and clearly. They think it's worth destroying a worldwide standards body to achieve their ends. That tells you all you need to know- they know their OOXML "standard" is a sham, and they have no intention of supporting a genuine standard. (And shame on the various committees for letting themselves be subverted.) I have no respect for Microsoft or its spokespeople. You have to leave your conscience locked up to parrot the sort of guff they're emitting. No paycheck is worth that.

Anita Hanson

"lying bully" should read "Like any lying bully..." And I horked the formatting. Oh well, and thanks, Stephen, for a great blog.

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